Discussion in 'Arizona Scene' started by singh, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Desert Hound

    Desert Hound Well-Known Member

    Well for starters, the 2nd teams are not ELITE. They are 2nd teams. The best players will be on the MLS Next teams.

    Then of course in the case of RSL they are taking their 2nd team (ECNL) and now creating 2 teams. You are splitting up talent. RSL would field a stronger 2nd team if it were just one per age group. Now what they are doing is splitting up talent between North and South.

    RSL always recruits. They take kids internally BUT are always taking kids from outside.

    In terms of Cal. With ECNL RSL teams were playing in the strongest region (So Cal). That is a good thing.

    With EA you are now playing in a weaker area.

    Too bad RSL lost boys ECNL. The EA offer is not as interesting of a league and having 2 teams per age group means lesser teams vs having just one stronger ECNL team.
    mbappe, Zerofire and Funyuns like this.
  2. AZsoccefan

    AZsoccefan Active Member

    You make some really good points, but the one point I'll make is that I don't think ECNL competition for this year is truly reflective for a few reasons.
    One is obviously Covid. While the MLS teams like Rising recruited heavily (from State league for DA at the time) over the winter of '19/'20 (pre-Covid), ECNL only did internal ID sessions and did not have any official tryouts last year. Most of the younger Rising ECNL teams were the Scottsdale teams from the year prior which were mid-table in State league 1 ('08's) or at the bottom of APL ('07's).
    In addition, at least for Rising, they were granted some MLS age groups (U15 and above) mid-summer of '20 and had to quickly shift strategy and move their ECNL teams to MLS and in turn, their top Scottsdale team to ECNL. Big difference for those teams going from State League to playing many of the top SoCal teams that were in ECNL or once DA.

    Not saying that Rising or Arsenal will be a powerhouse in ECNL Southwest Conference next year but based on what I've seen at tryouts so far, they will be notably improved and much more competitive in ECNL next season.

    I'll also point out that prior to this past season, Rising was at or near the top of ECNL standing at almost every age group. Granted that was prior to DA going bust and many really good SoCal teams moving to ECNL SW but there were still some great SoCal ECNL Clubs at the time it just shows that AZ teams can compete with SoCal.
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
    mbappe likes this.
  3. whatithink

    whatithink Active Member

    I'm aware of that and don't disagree that they will be stronger next year. The SoCal teams will be too, not least as they will be able to practice and play consistently. That doesn't make any of them elite, which is my general point.

    The top talent should go to MLS Next, which immediately downgrades every other league. I also think ECNL SW with 20 teams is bloated. There's a reason the DA had a funnel system narrowing at U15 and reducing the number of teams to concentrate the talent. We now have the opposite effect. I'm pretty certain there hasn't suddenly been an explosion in elite players across all age group. There has however been an explosion in "elite leagues/platforms".
    2009boydad and AZsoccefan like this.
  4. Desert Hound

    Desert Hound Well-Known Member

    They are down to 19 now after getting rid of RSL ;)

    But yes MLS Next should be the top league. ECNL boys is the next. EA is 3rd (just look at the clubs they have taken in so far).

    I think at some point MLS Next has tiers. In DA the MLS academies were not happy playing most of the non MLS academy teams. So much so that DA was in the process of putting in tiers on the boys side.

    It isn't like these non MLS clubs got it is not far fetched to see the same thing happen in the future.
  5. Cjsmom

    Cjsmom New Member

    Did anyone hear about Arsenal 06B losing their ECNL spot?
  6. socaltransplant

    socaltransplant New Member

    No but RSL lost their ECNL teams for allegedly skirting recruiting rules by recruiting players in season from other teams for their MLS Next teams (Allowed!!) and putting those players on their ECNL teams (Not Allowed!!!).
    Futbol Dad likes this.
  7. calmdown

    calmdown Member

    Where did the recruited kids come from? If they were already playing on the ECNL platform, I can see how that is a problem. If the recruited kids were playing on a non-ECNL platform, seems a very harsh sanction.
  8. Desert Hound

    Desert Hound Well-Known Member

    Clubs can recruit in season from other clubs for their ECNL programs. They cannot however poach from other ECNL teams at other clubs. The exception is if the player gets a release from their current club to move to another ECNL club.

    If you pay attention to ECNL rosters, clubs add players throughout the year and it is within the rules.
    AZsoccefan likes this.
  9. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    I wonder who the mastermind behind this scheme was? DS maybe? BE maybe?
    mbappe likes this.
  10. Cali

    Cali Member

    If your club like RSL can recruit from any other RSL team regardless of the RSL affiliate but the local State Soccer Association does not allow recruiting from other clubs unless the poaching club likes paying fines with the threat of being suspended in all of local State Association various leagues and approved state tournaments.

    Sounds like ECNL actually does what it says it will do for poaching dueing stated in the agreed affliation agreement each club signs.
  11. Desert Hound

    Desert Hound Well-Known Member

    Yes and no.

    Yes RSL can pull from any of their teams at any time. Anything under the RSL banner is fair game.

    ECNL is outside of ASA. So they or the other 3 can pull kids from other clubs at any time during the season without sanction from ASA. ECNL is outside of ASA jurisdiction. GA is as well for instance.

    Where ASA gets involved relates to pulling players from another clubs state teams and adding them to the new clubs state teams. In that case there are rules that have to be followed.
  12. AZsoccefan

    AZsoccefan Active Member

    I thought there were like a million hoops to jump through if a club (even ECNL) had a kid come in during the season from an outside club (non-affiliate). The other club needs to give permission and sign off on some sort of transfer paperwork.

    If that is the case then RSL potentially used their MLS Next program to get around the regulations it if the ECNL poaching rumor is true.
  13. SteveNV73

    SteveNV73 Member

    Why are people so afraid on this forum to put actual names?
  14. Desert Hound

    Desert Hound Well-Known Member

    It is pretty easy to get the kid over. Not a ton of hoops if you are picking up a kid from a non ECNL team and adding them to your ECNL team.
  15. AZsoccefan

    AZsoccefan Active Member

    But doesn't the club on the non-ECNL side have to sign off on it? In the 20/21 pre-season my son's team had a couple kids that were interested from an external Non-ECNL club and that club would not sign off on the kid being a discovery player or coming over to ECNL. The club told the kids they would have to quit - 1 quit and come over and the other, better player didn't.
  16. Cali

    Cali Member

    So Just because a club has ECNL they cant poach from other clubs.

    You are saying it's ok to poach other club players but the local State Association says otherwise.

    Your argument would be valid if a club in question, only had ECNL and ECRL

    No teams in any local State Association sanction league / tournament which requires membership. Approved membership in local State Association states no poaching and requires a release if leaving to one club to another
  17. Desert Hound

    Desert Hound Well-Known Member

    You are incorrect.

    It is why MLS Next clubs recruit and do ID sessions during the season. They can and do take players all the time from other clubs during the season.

    When DA was up and running it was the same thing.

    When I was TM for an ECNL team we added players all the time.

    The non ECNL, non MLS Next, clubs don't like it. But these kids are getting put into a league that is not affiliated with ASA. As such those rules do not apply. The rules in question that do apply are ECNL transfer rules, MLS Next transfer rules, etc.
    Futbol Fiend likes this.
  18. Desert Hound

    Desert Hound Well-Known Member had this happen.

    With DA your kid couldn't officially talk to another DA club about moving unless the current club gave permission to talk. del Sol and RSL were fairly good about that.

    So the parents were stuck. Made it hard to reach out to gauge interest to see if a move was possible or not.

    You know what was easy and didn't require any permission from the home club? Moving to an ECNL club. The DA rules didn't apply. Neither did the ECNL rules. So you could be on a DA club and call and have a good conversation with the ECNL club to see what was possible. If you then decided to move, no release from the current club was necessary. And of course moving from an ECNL club to a DA club was also easy for the same reason.

    It is basically the same with ASA. Their rules deal with moving from a state team on one club to a similar team on another club. Their rules do not apply when moving to leagues that are not under the umbrella of ASA.
  19. SteveNV73

    SteveNV73 Member

    All these rules are dumb. I am glad we are signing up kids to be owned by these clubs from year to year. I think the setup is you should want to stay vs. have to...maybe that would put in a much needed level of accountability where your actions as a club or coach have consequences.
    2009boydad and Funyuns like this.
  20. Desert Hound

    Desert Hound Well-Known Member

    Here are the ASA rules about transfers. The only penalties related to a move talk about forfeiting a game, not being eligible to play in State Cup or Presidents Cup. There is nothing about moving to a league outside of ASA authority.

    Here you go.

    3.04 Club Transfers
    The process by which a player changes club affiliation, moving from one club to another.

    3.04.01 APL Players that transfer to another APL Club/Team after September 25, 2019 will be ineligible to participate in APL games for the remainder of the 2020- 2021 season;

    3.04.02 APL Club/Teams violating this policy will result in forfeiture of the game.

    3.04.03 ASL1 and ASL2 Players that transfer to another APL, ASL1, or ASL2 Club/Team are eligible to participate in that Division’s games for the remainder of the 2020-2021 season contingent upon Section 3.05.

    3.05 November 1 st Transfer Policy: Players who transfer from one club to another club after November 1st will be ineligible for participation in both Arizona Presidents Cup and Arizona State Cup.

    That player is permitted to participate in Regionals and Nationals for that seasonal year7 . A transfer is defined as the process by which a player changes club affiliation, moving from one club and re-registering to a team within a different club within the same seasonal year. A maximum of five (5) transfers are allowed for teams which participate in the National Championships Series, known as Arizona State Cup.

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